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Milk
Sept 26, 2014 16:33:16 GMT -6
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Post by ellettherefords on Sept 26, 2014 16:33:16 GMT -6
Looking through sale catalogs today I saw a lot of cows with good numbers on everything but milk. How much emphasis do you put on a milk epd.
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Milk
Sept 26, 2014 17:12:52 GMT -6
Post by larso on Sept 26, 2014 17:12:52 GMT -6
For me breed average is acceptable but then how much faith do you put into the accuracy of the figure? I've got cows that milked the house down for the 1st few calves, then the udder broke down ( mastitis, bottle tits) so I'm consecrating on udder shape.
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Milk
Sept 26, 2014 18:32:40 GMT -6
Post by btlrupert on Sept 26, 2014 18:32:40 GMT -6
Can't really worry about it with my current bloodline. More interested in high weaning ratio cows as I build the base herd. One cow I have is a 5 on milk and has ratioed 109 on 4 calves in a large herd. Looking at buying one now thats a 6 and is nursing a 600 lb heifer calf. My ideal milk EPD in our area would be around breed average ...
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Post by George on Sept 27, 2014 11:40:22 GMT -6
Looking through sale catalogs today I saw a lot of cows with good numbers on everything but milk. How much emphasis do you put on a milk epd. Almost zero! The EPDs of almost all Hereford cows doesn't have enough of an accuracy level to have any confidence in them. In a cow, you are better off to look at the performance pedigree to try to determine milking ability, but that can be skewed if the person creep feeds.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 28, 2014 13:40:50 GMT -6
like George I put very littel faith in epd's anymore and this includes milk. I have seen and/or had cows with low teens MM outwean cows with it in the mid to upper 20's time and time again. I have cows here that for one reason or another according to the almight computer in KC that haven't moved one bit over their production even though there calves ratio well over a 100 each and every year, nor do their growth numbers move to reflect that as well. I realize that I play with old dead bloodlines and my base has alot of canadian influence in it which explains the reasons why those numbers suck to any of us around this game for quite a while , but nevertheless, if they ratio above 100 and the average 205 wt in our program keeps rising each year.............................................
in response to your initial question , I guess I've got to the point I no longer worry about the MM is, I prefer to look a the cow and see her calf as well. if she's fat and bred back and has a big strapping calf at side then she's got the right balance of milk combined with growth.that all being said, I won't use a bull that is single digit, nor an I interested in using bulls that are thru the roof MM epd unless we are trying to add some milk to given set of matings
remember, milk is one of the three parts in the visious triangle (growth, fertility and milk) too much or too little will affect all.
I guess I just try and aviod the extremes and mother nature will tell me the rest.
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Post by dougthorson on Sept 29, 2014 6:41:48 GMT -6
That would never work, you have to use your eyes and actually be in a pasture with cows. Don't you know the way to go is to make your breeding decisions in front of your computer?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 7:31:51 GMT -6
Will put some faith that there is something to be concerned about with extreme low side of MM EPD. Breed average is 19 so anything nearing single digits unless you have a female already milking to be able to physically validate that the number is not accurate I think there is reason to have caution with the lower extreme numbers. Also I think the extremes on the high end can sometimes be a bad thing too as the heavier the milker you can run into issues with that cow keeping up her condition in some environments and breeding back because so much energy is going towards milking the calf she is raising.
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 29, 2014 17:32:22 GMT -6
Milk is the last thing that concerns me because their is a potential antagonism between milk production and productive life. And more importantly, I believe that milking ability does not correlate well between different environmental conditions.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 29, 2014 18:49:52 GMT -6
That would never work, you have to use your eyes and actually be in a pasture with cows. Don't you know the way to go is to make your breeding decisions in front of your computer? damn, I've guess I've been diong it wrong all these years
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Milk
Sept 29, 2014 18:54:13 GMT -6
elkwc likes this
Post by bookcliff on Sept 29, 2014 18:54:13 GMT -6
Will put some faith that there is something to be concerned about with extreme low side of MM EPD. been there done that..................... Teamster,Race,Raceway, Trustmark, Knight Ryder, and the big kahuna of no milk.... K builder R108 who settled in at a -38 once his one and only set of daughters got in production.....................Oh the long ago heady days of the polled show world combined with the frame game. I hauled the peaches and cream cow for Jim and Sue to Sun Valley to get flushed one time when I was headed over there with a donor of Cedar Creek's. she was one milky rip, so it still amazes me that Raceway was as dry as his sire.
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Milk
Sept 30, 2014 7:41:39 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 7:41:39 GMT -6
Will put some faith that there is something to be concerned about with extreme low side of MM EPD. been there done that..................... Teamster,Race,Raceway, Trustmark, Knight Ryder, and the big kahuna of no milk.... K builder R108 who settled in at a -38 once his one and only set of daughters got in production.....................Oh the long ago heady days of the polled show world combined with the frame game. I hauled the peaches and cream cow for Jim and Sue to Sun Valley to get flushed one time when I was headed over there with a donor of Cedar Creek's. she was one milky rip, so it still amazes me that Raceway was as dry as his sire. Knight Rider, now there is a bull I haven't heard mentioned in awhile! Here's a couple funny things I came across doing a Google search that I'm sure you will get a chuckle out of. From CT boards in 2006 someone was looking for a frame 8 Hereford bull:
8 frame herefords are like looking for stamps in the post office, they're everywhere. All the "good" bulls of the late 70's and early 80's are 8's or bigger. Driver, 12H, Etc, etc.
Wish I could remember the registered name of a show heifer I bought back in the 90's when the frame race was on. She was definitely a 7+ and turned out to be a terrible cow because she didn't milk but back then if you didn't have a big framed heifer in the show ring the judge was going to bury you in the class. Was from one of the Bar something ranches, can't remember which one so may dig through the old cattle records this weekend as I'm curious what the sire was and what her EPDs look like today. I could be wrong but wasn't there a Mohican Tradition bull that was big frame and no milk too?
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Milk
Sept 30, 2014 8:10:51 GMT -6
Post by bookcliff on Sept 30, 2014 8:10:51 GMT -6
Mohican Tradition 530.......we went to using him pretty damn hard AI in the early 90's just to put some milk back into the Cedar Creek cows after Joyces run with the polled showring all thru the 80's and early 90's. he damn sure had milk, at least in teh spectrum of early 90's polled bulls, maybe not so much by todays standards.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 30, 2014 11:54:33 GMT -6
Will put some faith that there is something to be concerned about with extreme low side of MM EPD. Breed average is 19 so anything nearing single digits unless you have a female already milking to be able to physically validate that the number is not accurate I think there is reason to have caution with the lower extreme numbers. Also I think the extremes on the high end can sometimes be a bad thing too as the heavier the milker you can run into issues with that cow keeping up her condition in some environments and breeding back because so much energy is going towards milking the calf she is raising. I am going to try and add a thought and hopefully be able to get my point across w/o sounding like a total idiot in my sleepless state again (here's a fun game, try to make an intelligent point after being awake 30 hours!! NOT!!) I do not put much faith into the number that shows on the milk epd. I do not care if it is low, I do not care if it is high because the simple fact remains that there are very few and I mean DAMN FEW bulls proven well enough to get that accuracy to mean something, and you can bring up bull after bull after bull in the hereford sire summary and unless he is well over ten years old that accuracy doesn't mean spit. I do not for a second believe that a low milk epd and low accuracy bull will take milk away from your cows and also I do not for a second believe that a high milk epd will add milk. Now that being said, When a bull is 'discovered to add milk in a big fashion' then you will have issues with his daughters maintaining within a challenging environment in a low input situation. Same for when a high accuracy low milk epd bull wrecks a cowherd by making em drier than a popcorn fart in a west texas wind. I just don't happen to believe right now that there are that many hereford bulls capable of doing the high milk, didn't say none just said not many. Now there are damn sure bulls that have PROVEN themselves to take milk away as much as those who have proven to add milk, that I am not disputing, god knows we have all seen both sides of that spectrum. My point is that to select based upon milk epd alone or to choose a range of milk epd that sounds 'right' without knowing something about a bull's daughters and his mother and his sisters and even his mothers sisters is kind of like playing russian roulette. If you like gambling, then by all means, pull that trigger. I would like all the milk epd's of what I offer/sell to fall into that 'miraculously popular range', whatever that may be, but the simple fact for me is it means more knowing what that cow family has consistently been able to do and then let the milk epd fall where it may. Probably won't work for everyone but that is the way my thought process works.
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Post by tartancowgirl on Sept 30, 2014 14:16:32 GMT -6
I think this is a very complex subject. In UK in any farming discussion about Herefords someone always says "Herefords are poor milkers". It's something that interests me because it has the potential to be a problem both ways - too little and you have a miserable calf but too much and you have a cow that can develop mastitis and needs a lot of feeding to maintain her condition, so really what you want is just the right amount of milk - not too little and not too much. Even so, quantity of milk is not everything - the quality of milk is equally important. These factors cannot really be measured in a beef cow so all we can do is look at the calf. However as the calf gets older it starts making more use of grass and other food and the way it utilises grass may make up for lack of milk. We don't creep feed but the majority of farmers here do, complicating things further. There is a widely held belief that if a heifer gets too fat, she will lay down fat cells in her udder and this will affect her milking ability, yet people feed their heifers to get them to grow big enough to bull at 15 months, so how much is management and how much is inherited? If a cow has lots of milk and her heifer calf is fat, does that affect her daughter's milking ability or does that occur later - if so how much later? I have so many questions and although I think I understand how some EBVs are assessed I have never been very sure about the Milk EBV (EPD). Maybe your opinions on this will help me! Among our cows I'm fairly sure we have good, poor and average milkers and at say 9 months old undoubtedly some calves are bigger than others. Yet by the time they get to 18 months they are all about the same and the ones that were bigger at 9 months may not be the biggest at 18 months. So I suppose if your market is suckled calves you want cows with lots of milk, but if you are rearing store cattle to sell later and your cows have to survive a hard winter, maybe you don't want cows with too much milk.
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Milk
Sept 30, 2014 14:49:39 GMT -6
nicky likes this
Post by larso on Sept 30, 2014 14:49:39 GMT -6
Good post tartancowgirl, I have had the same questions. Does the butterfat content of the milk vary much between the cows therefore affecting the calves performance? Many years ago out here a study of this was going to be done, unfortunately the study didn't get off the ground as the man who was going to do it died. I have cows that visually don't appear to have more milk but every calf they have is always one of the best. There is an indication some believe of the butterfat level of the cows milk by certain visual traits displayed but I won't put that up here until we see what others think of your post.
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Milk
Sept 30, 2014 16:18:32 GMT -6
Post by elkwc on Sept 30, 2014 16:18:32 GMT -6
Tartancowgirl you made some very good points. I feel there are many factors that enter into the equation. I personally don't worry much about a cow milking down a little as long as she rebreeds on time. In the herd I've been helping with there are some cows up to 13 years of age that still wean a good calf every year and continue to rebreed. In one bunch of them out of 51 cows there was 50 calves. The big end at 8-8 1/2 months weighed 768 after being weaned two weeks. They were eating good when weaned and never skipped a beat. By the time these steers are 14-15 months of age they should be on the rail. The smaller end of the steers weighed 720 and was likely a few weeks younger. This set of cows overall milks heavy. Some might feel too heavy. But they have raised a calf every year since they were two and continue to rebreed. We kept 24 heifers out of them last spring and plan on keeping a few this fall. Hard to save many with what they are bringing. These cows are in a cake and grass operation. And perform well. The calves got left until nine months old last year and 10 of them got bred. We kept them plus 14 more. The ones that calved along with the open ones all settled within two heat cycles when put with the bulls. So hard to say milking heavy has hurt them any. Again I let my eyes tell me if a cow isn't performing. I trust my eyes way more than I do some numbers on a paper. The Angus bull that I selected last Feb has very high numbers when it comes to maternal traits. What I put more trust in is that his mother, grandmother and great grandmother were all very good cows with good udders and all except his mother have produced many years. She is a young cow but so far has produced well. Personally I would rather have a touch too much milk in a cow as not enough. Just my opinion.
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Milk
Sept 30, 2014 20:50:37 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 20:50:37 GMT -6
Will put some faith that there is something to be concerned about with extreme low side of MM EPD. Breed average is 19 so anything nearing single digits unless you have a female already milking to be able to physically validate that the number is not accurate I think there is reason to have caution with the lower extreme numbers. Also I think the extremes on the high end can sometimes be a bad thing too as the heavier the milker you can run into issues with that cow keeping up her condition in some environments and breeding back because so much energy is going towards milking the calf she is raising. I am going to try and add a thought and hopefully be able to get my point across w/o sounding like a total idiot in my sleepless state again (here's a fun game, try to make an intelligent point after being awake 30 hours!! NOT!!) I do not put much faith into the number that shows on the milk epd. I do not care if it is low, I do not care if it is high because the simple fact remains that there are very few and I mean DAMN FEW bulls proven well enough to get that accuracy to mean something, and you can bring up bull after bull after bull in the hereford sire summary and unless he is well over ten years old that accuracy doesn't mean spit. I do not for a second believe that a low milk epd and low accuracy bull will take milk away from your cows and also I do not for a second believe that a high milk epd will add milk. Now that being said, When a bull is 'discovered to add milk in a big fashion' then you will have issues with his daughters maintaining within a challenging environment in a low input situation. Same for when a high accuracy low milk epd bull wrecks a cowherd by making em drier than a popcorn fart in a west texas wind. I just don't happen to believe right now that there are that many hereford bulls capable of doing the high milk, didn't say none just said not many. Now there are damn sure bulls that have PROVEN themselves to take milk away as much as those who have proven to add milk, that I am not disputing, god knows we have all seen both sides of that spectrum. My point is that to select based upon milk epd alone or to choose a range of milk epd that sounds 'right' without knowing something about a bull's daughters and his mother and his sisters and even his mothers sisters is kind of like playing russian roulette. If you like gambling, then by all means, pull that trigger. I would like all the milk epd's of what I offer/sell to fall into that 'miraculously popular range', whatever that may be, but the simple fact for me is it means more knowing what that cow family has consistently been able to do and then let the milk epd fall where it may. Probably won't work for everyone but that is the way my thought process works. thats pretty dry.
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Milk
Sept 30, 2014 22:37:48 GMT -6
Post by bookcliff on Sept 30, 2014 22:37:48 GMT -6
Good post tartancowgirl, I have had the same questions. Does the butterfat content of the milk vary much between the cows therefore affecting the calves performance? Many years ago out here a study of this was going to be done, unfortunately the study didn't get off the ground as the man who was going to do it died. I have cows that visually don't appear to have more milk but every calf they have is always one of the best. There is an indication some believe of the butterfat level of the cows milk by certain visual traits displayed but I won't put that up here until we see what others think of your post. according to Jay Middlesworth, yes butterfat content is more important than lbs of milk produced when looking at hereford cows and the resulting weaning wts. according to Jay, his dad bought a milking machine and Jay had to milk a bunch of thier registerd cows one time to look at milk flow VS MM epd's VS weaning weights. they also looked at butterfat content. I'm not exactly sure when they did this yeara back. Mike or Jane do you know, was this when you all were involved with em.
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Milk
Oct 1, 2014 5:46:49 GMT -6
Post by guffeygal on Oct 1, 2014 5:46:49 GMT -6
Must have been after we were there I was not aware of it. We were there from 79 to 83.
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Milk
Oct 1, 2014 7:49:25 GMT -6
nicky likes this
Post by bltherf on Oct 1, 2014 7:49:25 GMT -6
A breeder up here did those same tests some years back and reported bf content is extremely variable. A direct correlation to calf weight. One can see that just by observing your own herd. Many times over the years we have had cows that appeared to have very small bags and limited milk flow. Yet they would bring in some of the biggest calves. I actually prefer those to ones with larger udders, just less problems with ligament suspension as they age. Have a 2 yr old Lego heifer that will wean an April Sensation calf this year over 700 lbs on dry native prairie. She never appears to have much of an udder, but the proof is there beside her.
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Milk
Oct 2, 2014 10:31:47 GMT -6
Glenn likes this
Post by tartancowgirl on Oct 2, 2014 10:31:47 GMT -6
Good post tartancowgirl, I have had the same questions. Does the butterfat content of the milk vary much between the cows therefore affecting the calves performance? Many years ago out here a study of this was going to be done, unfortunately the study didn't get off the ground as the man who was going to do it died. I have cows that visually don't appear to have more milk but every calf they have is always one of the best. There is an indication some believe of the butterfat level of the cows milk by certain visual traits displayed but I won't put that up here until we see what others think of your post. You ended your post on a rather tantalising note Larso... Interested in what you were going to say?
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Milk
Oct 2, 2014 10:54:11 GMT -6
Post by Glenn on Oct 2, 2014 10:54:11 GMT -6
"You ended your post on a rather tantalising note Larso... Interested in what you were going to say? yeah, don't let the cat get your tongue!
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Milk
Oct 2, 2014 13:01:47 GMT -6
Post by strojanherefords on Oct 2, 2014 13:01:47 GMT -6
A breeder up here did those same tests some years back and reported bf content is extremely variable. A direct correlation to calf weight. One can see that just by observing your own herd. Many times over the years we have had cows that appeared to have very small bags and limited milk flow. Yet they would bring in some of the biggest calves. I actually prefer those to ones with larger udders, just less problems with ligament suspension as they age. Have a 2 yr old Lego heifer that will wean an April Sensation calf this year over 700 lbs on dry native prairie. She never appears to have much of an udder, but the proof is there beside her. Is it milk that made the big calf or is it getting more production from eating grass? I don't care how the calves get big just so long as they get big.
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Milk
Oct 2, 2014 13:53:17 GMT -6
Post by larso on Oct 2, 2014 13:53:17 GMT -6
I'm always a bit hesitant to say something on here unless I'm confident it is true or actuate. But a very wise old breeder who bred great functional cattle believed that the yellowness of the wax inside of the ear was an indication to him that the cow had higher levels of butterfat. I have noticed when tattooing the weaners some certainly do display more of a yellowness and I will certainly watch to see if it might be true. But he spoke with great conviction and he was recognised as being one of the most knowledgeable cattleman in his time.
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Milk
Oct 2, 2014 14:01:03 GMT -6
Post by Glenn on Oct 2, 2014 14:01:03 GMT -6
That is very interesting. You do mean in the calf's ear right? Not the cows?
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