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Post by Glenn on Jul 30, 2014 10:49:31 GMT -6
With friends like this who needs enemies?  I stick to my earlier prediction, (someone can dig it up here) that they're going to roll out some new EPD at this "Shin Dig". Probably "efficiency" related...... |
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Post by Glenn on Jul 30, 2014 11:09:22 GMT -6
BTW, as any good company man would do, I believe he is mostly talking his book. Needs to get members to "buy more goods" from the store. Got salaries to pay. Just a quick anecdote (may or may not be accurate to any one else): I was just talking to a fellow cattleman this morning about "my epds suck". He asked if I thought it mattered. I said not to my buyers. I have very, very few buyers that look at EPDS. A few but not many. Before you say that I sell to unsophisticated buyers, all my bulls this spring ended up on a ranch that also buys bulls at Coopers and Holdens (mostly Holden's I think). Another note: Huffines said "As far as phenotypic evaluation, well, let's just say cow-calf producers are, for the most part, relying on their seedstock suppliers to assure that the bulls they purchase are functionally sound" Say what? ? |
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Post by Glenn on Jul 30, 2014 11:12:05 GMT -6
Okay, I should quit, but this article irritated the hell out of me. Did you know that a YW EPD of +75 puts your bull on the "left side" of the AHA's little graph that all the ?? (okay be nice here) breeders love to put in their ads??? |
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Post by bookcliff on Jul 30, 2014 12:19:13 GMT -6
the whole problem revolves in my mind around
#1 phenotypic selection. if "purebred" breeders as a whole actually knew and understood this to the level that they are often times referred too as achieving we wouldn't be having the discussions and pictures about proper eyeset like right now here. along with that same thing goes structure, especially feet and legs, which as of late seem to be giong down the path of the angus breed at a pace just as rapid as their march to issues that are common knowledge thruought the industry. quite frankly, often times the commerical outfits I visit/neighbor with/cowboy for are more critical and selective of phenotype than quite a few of the programs I see on Hereford/Angus tours. they often times have cattle with less phenotypic problems AKA eyes,feet,muscle pattern, udders ect that quite a few of the "seedstock" boys that are supposed to be better at it.......................NOT.
#2 EPD's, is a 75 really giong to do 75. anyone who can predict that that yearling bull will do what he says on EPD's is either damn nieve about how accuracy works (and I think GE at this point and time is just barely better than voodoo) or is just making a SWAG. if you want to discuss this more, then read Ken Stephnes article in the headliner from a couple of issues ago. pedigree knowledge, development/feed/program knowledge are way more important as to what that individual will do that any EPD will tell you at the time that bull calf is being purchased. yes at some point and time DNA will finally fix all this, but at this time just more garbage into the SWAG.
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Post by George on Jul 30, 2014 12:52:05 GMT -6
Aaahhh...a NEW DNA panel! And it can "potentially" predict and account for for upward of 50% of the variation in the Hereford breed's most important economically relevant traits! The price - JUST $50 per test!
Let's sure hope the NEW DNA panel is more accurate than the present one - which is proving to be, as Tom said, barely better than "voodoo".
Yep....Larry Leonhardt's path is looking better and better. Rather than tru-lines, I think I'll just call mine "Wooleyboogers".
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Post by Glenn on Jul 30, 2014 12:57:11 GMT -6
Good point's Tom. Another note: Huffines said "As far as phenotypic evaluation, well, let's just say cow-calf producers are, for the most part, relying on their seedstock suppliers to assure that the bulls they purchase are functionally sound" Say what? ? When I was typing this out earlier, this was what was in my mind vividly. I'm glad it's still up on the internet: Those legs!!!! |
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Post by George on Jul 30, 2014 13:01:58 GMT -6
Good point's Tom. Another note: Huffines said "As far as phenotypic evaluation, well, let's just say cow-calf producers are, for the most part, relying on their seedstock suppliers to assure that the bulls they purchase are functionally sound" Say what? ? When I was typing this out earlier, this was what was in my mind vividly. I'm glad it's still up on the internet: Those legs!!!! *LOL* It's funny that when I read that, Jerry Huth was also the FIRST person that came to my mind! Yep, some of those "seedstock" producers that produce these EPD wonders have proven that functional soundness is completely off their selection list. |
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Post by Glenn on Jul 30, 2014 13:12:23 GMT -6
It apparently isn't an issue for the stud services to select stud bulls from breeders that apparently place little value on proper soundness: www.accelgen.com/catalog/semen-beef/014hp01023/english/gallery-huth-813-revolution-4r-y001And here is a blurb from the "come on" >>Revolution's EPDs rank him near the top of the breed for nearly every trait and index<< We are going to ruin this breed going down the same path that has caused the Angus great harm, and that is BREEDING FOR NUMBERS! |
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Post by bookcliff on Jul 30, 2014 14:43:56 GMT -6
simply put,
if EPD's worked to the level that those who profess they do & given the massive amount of numbers and data that go into the Angus system for thier EPD's then............
why are former Angus bull users turning in droves to Hereford, Char and Simmy bulls to stem the loss of growth within their particular cowherds when at the same time the Average Angus bull has damn near doubled his YW EPD since I first purchasing Angus bulls and Angus semen some 20 years ago
another point to ponder. back when I first started feeding out our steers in the early 90's we never worried about YG issues with the Angus genetics we were using but we damn sure did with our Hereford genetics in use at the time. since then the Angus breed has done nothing but go up on thier average REA EPD to numbers a short 10 years ago seemed unatainably high and they have continued to march on even higher. fast forward to 2014, and a complete reversal of 20 some years ago. I now have to be very cautious in what Angus Geneics we bring into my father-in -laws papered Angus cows because even though Angus EPd's speak loudly of better and more muscle with each sucessive gneration, those same genetics are garnering higher and higer YG scores with each passing generation at the packing plant.
I fear we are now headed down the same path as a breed as our black counterpart that commercial industry is leaving at the very time they are turning to us as a replacement as we blindly adopt the very thing that cuased their recent loss of confidence of Angus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 15:04:35 GMT -6
That video is painful to watch and I'm a little surprised that Jerry would actually put something like that up for sale. Any idea what he sold for? Obviously should not be selecting entirely based on EPD's but use them as a tool in your selection. We pay attention to EPD's but ultimately if the phenotype is poor it doesn't matter if they are an EPD wonder you probably won't be happy with the results.
As for Revolution genetics - have noticed a lot more Revolution sons showing up in sire studs lately but haven't really seen a son of his that I'd rather use AI over the original Revolution 4R if you are breeding polled genetics. I know there are some critics out there of Revolution 4R but those who have daughters out of him are probably pretty pleased with them and following sale results the past few years the Revolution daughters seem to bring pretty good prices too.
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Post by larso on Jul 30, 2014 15:27:49 GMT -6
There is an old saying " The trouble with stud breeders is they don't know how to use a castrating knife" By the look of it the breeder of Lot 14 doesn't even own a castrating knife.
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Post by elkwc on Jul 30, 2014 21:27:08 GMT -6
I've posted my opinions about EPD's before and if anything I pay less attention to EPD's everyday. After my exchange with another poster on this forum last week I decided to talk to a few commercial breeders who have been purchasing bulls for at least the last 5-10 years or longer and have used EPD's and seen the results. They all echoed many of the statements on here. Not a one pays any attention to an EPD that includes human input and judgement. One said the biggest farce in EPD's is CE and Docility. And some are like Glenn's buyers and pay no attention to EPD's at all. Everyone of them said when selecting a heifer bull they want to know the BW of the sire and if possible the mother and grandsire. Most don't want to see a BW on a heifer bull above 70 lbs. And some say smaller. As one registered Hereford breeder who is in his mid 80's told me recently. The best heifer bulls are many times what you would term the bottom and many times castrate. They have a low BW, lighter boned, lighter muscled and the ideal one will be built like a greyhound. He has participated in the Hereford Assn efforts in this area and said that BW and build are the two main factiors in whether a heifer will calve with no assitance or not. Management, type of feed, ect will also had an influence but he felt that those two items were the most important. Docility is another area that many feel is very inaccurate. I have to agree. At the sale I attended this year at least a 1/3 of the bulls had what I would term undesirable temperments. They hit the sale ring, blew snot, threw dirt and were hard to get in and out of the ring. Some blame in on the bull studs. All but a few bulls by a clean up bull were by AI sires. All had docility ratings that made them comparable to the yellow lab laying by the fireplace. It was evident the ratings didn't apply to many of the bulls in this sale. I've seen others the same way. Saw a bull at a breeders and the minute anyone walked up to the fence his head went in the air and he headed to the backside of the pen. His rating was very good. At least at the sale I attended overall the structure of the animals was good. No bad feet or legs. Good bone but not too much. But I've seen several issues in the herds I've visited. Have seen several bulls from the current hot Horned and Polled breeders who I wouldn't let service a cow I owned. I saw a Horned bull a few weeks ago from one of the current top Line 1 breeders. He appeared to have been pushed and had issues with a front ankle. In the 60's and 70's that bull would have been sent to the packers in a hurry if he was in any of the herds I was around. Today he is sold and brings top dollar. A bull or cow is only as good as the foundation that they walk on. In my opinion and that of others breeders I've talked to every breed needs to work on making their current evaluations more accurate before expanding them.
I will say from my conversations every breeder I've talked to are doing very detailed structural inspections of any bull they look at. And all but one breeders said they wanted to see actual BW's, WW's and YW's and if they weren't available they didn't put any faith in the ratios being listed by either the Hereford or Angus breeders. More than one breeders said they have seen WW's and YW's decline although every bull that was used had great ratios in those areas. But when using bulls with hight actual weights in those areas they have seen continual increases despite what those whose promote the EPD's say. As a commercial breeder we base our decisions on actual results in the pasture, the feedlot and on the rail. That is what it is all about. The results we see in those areas determine if our programs are doing a good job and will also determine the profit level if any. I hope the Hereford assn. figures out what path they need to follow before it is too late.
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Post by elkwc on Jul 30, 2014 21:47:04 GMT -6
PS just wanted to say the bull in the video is a prime example of some of what I've seen that have came from some of the top breeders. He is the worst but not by far. I was told to be careful by more than one person if this breeders name showed up in any of the pedigrees of the bulls I looked at. That some had structal issues and this video verifies that. When any breeder sells purebred stock with these issues in my opinion he is putting the dollar ahead of breeder integrity. This is another case that reminds me of the Angus breeder who is selecting replacements strictly by the Angus DNA tests and EPD's and not paying an attention to conformation. I've been told he is starting to have issues also. It is issues like these that causes commercial breeders to pay more attention to whether a bull is structurally sound not less. If Huffines truly believes what he said he is out of touch with the average commercial breeder in this area.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 8:05:56 GMT -6
There is an old saying " The trouble with stud breeders is they don't know how to use a castrating knife" By the look of it the breeder of Lot 14 doesn't even own a castrating knife. That is the sad/shocking thing about that bull, the breeder is Jerry Huth - Huth Polled Herefords who has been in the business a long time and has breed some good cattle over the years including a few Sire of Distinctions such as Enhancer 2D and Stacked Deck who was the reserve calf champion in Denver in 2002 and having a hard time finding it but that bull also won something at Denver in 2003 as well. That is what is disappointing to see a video like that because he's not a good representation of Huth genetics. We have a few females with Enhancer 2D in their pedigrees and they have been some of the better cows on the farm over the years including a Dam of Distinction that was sired by 2D. I by no means am trying to defend the bull in that video because it has some horrible back legs, I'm just surprised and disappointed Jerry would put a bull like that on a sale. Even his performance pedigree is nothing to brag about on him, that bull was a 4.6 frame at yearling and ratio of 103 WW and just a 92 for YW plus he's not even breed average for WW and YW EPD's and REA was only .07 so he should have been in the feedlot not on a production sale.
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Post by Glenn on Jul 31, 2014 8:12:07 GMT -6
His EPD profile was likely better at the time. The Hereford EPDs have move a bit over the last two years. That was why I put in the part about a +75 YW EPD now being below the 50th percentile.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 8:30:16 GMT -6
His EPD profile was likely better at the time. The Hereford EPDs have move a bit over the last two years. That was why I put in the part about a +75 YW EPD now being below the 50th percentile. Regardless, back to the discussion about not using EPD's entirely - that bull has a huge structural flaw. EPDs can be completely ignored at that point and I don't care if he would have been sired by a national champion bull and had a YW EPD of 100+ bad legs are still bad legs plus he only framed 4.6 which 2 huge red flags of what kind of bull he is. Any person with cattle common sense would know you wouldn't buy a bull like that and looks like someone unfortunately did and probably has some poor legged calves as a result. |
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Post by Glenn on Jul 31, 2014 8:40:38 GMT -6
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I think the bull is a piece of shit and it makes me doubt any animal that would even have a Huth animal in the pedigree of. Their are lots of folks that had a hand in that stupid video that displays poorly on all Hereford cattle. Those videos were show on BuyHereford.com as well. George and I had a discussion with an Association man about it and it didn't seem to phase him in the least. He said (and I paraphrase from memory) that Buy Hereford would NEVER be sifted for quality that it was available to all members and they could sell what they liked.
Where did those bad legs come from? Dam? Sire? Any of the other cattle in that pedigree show up in other folks cattle? Stud bulls?
Bottom line it is just a bad, bad deal that gave that breeder a big black eye and sure didn't help polled breeders out in lots of peoples eyes nor did it help all Herefords out in the commercial world's eyes.
It gives us something to discuss on here, but in all reality I can NOT believe the video is still up on youtube. Someone should have the brains to remove it...
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Post by George on Jul 31, 2014 9:11:17 GMT -6
There is an old saying " The trouble with stud breeders is they don't know how to use a castrating knife" By the look of it the breeder of Lot 14 doesn't even own a castrating knife. That is the sad/shocking thing about that bull, the breeder is Jerry Huth - Huth Polled Herefords who has been in the business a long time and has breed some good cattle over the years including a few Sire of Distinctions such as Enhancer 2D and Stacked Deck who was the reserve calf champion in Denver in 2002 and having a hard time finding it but that bull also won something at Denver in 2003 as well. That is what is disappointing to see a video like that because he's not a good representation of Huth genetics. We have a few females with Enhancer 2D in their pedigrees and they have been some of the better cows on the farm over the years including a Dam of Distinction that was sired by 2D. I by no means am trying to defend the bull in that video because it has some horrible back legs, I'm just surprised and disappointed Jerry would put a bull like that on a sale. Even his performance pedigree is nothing to brag about on him, that bull was a 4.6 frame at yearling and ratio of 103 WW and just a 92 for YW plus he's not even breed average for WW and YW EPD's and REA was only .07 so he should have been in the feedlot not on a production sale.
If you have time, look at the rest of Jerry Huth's videos from 2012. That bull is just the WORST example of a whole bunch of structurally flawed individuals. And it was the second year in a row that his bull offering mostly walked around on their tippie toes - a bunch of NO-traveling POSes. I saw Stacked Deck in Denver in 2003. I was just back in the business and still excited by these new-fangled EPDs. Stacked Deck was a EPD wonder and I was eagerly looking forward to getting to see him in person. WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT! Online and the rest of Remitall's string and Barber's string made Stacked Deck truly look like a "girly man"! I still can't believe he won anything. Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I think the bull is a piece of shit and it makes me doubt any animal that would even have a Huth animal in the pedigree of. Their are lots of folks that had a hand in that stupid video that displays poorly on all Hereford cattle. Those videos were show on BuyHereford.com as well. George and I had a discussion with an Association man about it and it didn't seem to phase him in the least. He said (and I paraphrase from memory) that Buy Hereford would NEVER be sifted for quality that it was available to all members and they could sell what they liked. Where did those bad legs come from? Dam? Sire? Any of the other cattle in that pedigree show up in other folks cattle? Stud bulls? Bottom line it is just a bad, bad deal that gave that breeder a big black eye and sure didn't help polled breeders out in lots of peoples eyes nor did it help all Herefords out in the commercial world's eyes. It gives us something to discuss on here, but in all reality I can NOT believe the video is still up on youtube. Someone should have the brains to remove it... Exactly! When we corralled Dennis Schock, at the Lone Star dispersal, about this sorry POS being posted on BuyHereford.com and that we didn't think it was a good representation for the Hereford breed to have "junk" like that selling on an association sponsored site, Dennis basically said, "If you pay your money, you can sell whatever you want to sell!" Perhaps that is the way it should be, the Association should represent all members - including those who are selling piece of shit bulls. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to have something like that posted on the net for folks to see. |
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Post by larso on Jul 31, 2014 13:50:45 GMT -6
I suppose it is easy to stand on the side line and throw stones and I didn't mean to attack the breeder personally but I just couldn't believe a bull with those back legs could pass muster as acceptable with the breeder. In my experience people remember the bad faults in an animal long after any good points it might have had are forgotten.
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Post by oldduffer on Aug 5, 2014 8:08:47 GMT -6
RE: The Lot 14 bull that some of you have referred to as a "piece of shit" and a breed sponsored website that allows the sale of what some of you have called a "piece of shit".
I find it disturbing that the past &/or present directors [Those elected to champion our GREAT breed...] promote and market what might be called "GENETIC TRASH". When those in leadership positions in the breed market breeding stock with significant structural issues or cover up huge genetic defects for personal gain, they drag the association and ALL Hereford breeders down with them. It is even more disturbing to me that "BuyHereford" [which serves as a national showcase for the breed] does not sort the lots so our breed is fairly represented.
Once again we have proven that IF YOU NEED A SCALE, STICK, OR EPD'S TO TELL IF THEY ARE GOOD - THEY DAMN WELL AREN'T!!!!
Let's find some directors with INTEGRITY who are interested in promoting the breed......not their program. Breeders who will do what's right, even if it isn't popular with other board members or the K.C. Kid.
"I may not be right............but I'm dam sure!"
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Post by elkwc on Aug 5, 2014 12:19:14 GMT -6
RE: The Lot 14 bull that some of you have referred to as a "piece of shit" and a breed sponsored website that allows the sale of what some of you have called a "piece of shit". I find it disturbing that the past &/or present directors [Those elected to champion our GREAT breed...] promote and market what might be called "GENETIC TRASH". When those in leadership positions in the breed market breeding stock with significant structural issues or cover up huge genetic defects for personal gain, they drag the association and ALL Hereford breeders down with them. It is even more disturbing to me that "BuyHereford" [which serves as a national showcase for the breed] does not sort the lots so our breed is fairly represented. Once again we have proven that IF YOU NEED A SCALE, STICK, OR EPD'S TO TELL IF THEY ARE GOOD - THEY DAMN WELL AREN'T!!!! Let's find some directors with INTEGRITY who are interested in promoting the breed......not their program. Breeders who will do what's right, even if it isn't popular with other board members or the K.C. Kid. "I may not be right............but I'm dam sure!" I agree with what you said. I just recently subsribed to the Hereford World and received it yesterday. I read all of Huffines article. He is so out of touch with the reality of the commercial breeder. He is like the person I had an exchange with on another thread. At the present time the EPD's aren't a reliable tool to use for selection purposes. So many purebred breeders have bought into the hoopla about the ratios, ect. I would like for each of those so gung ho on using EPD's and CE as a selection crititeria to attend a sale like the Bradley 3 Angus sale and to talk to some of the commercial breeders who are purchasing bulls at the sale. Just maybe at least a few of them might have their eyes opened. They do provide the EPD ratios and the genomic info. But along with it they list the actual BW, weaning weight and yearling weight on each bull. The actual numbers along with a good visual evaluation is what most use. Many commercial breeders are willing to give a premium just because of this info being provided. And I don't know a single commercial breeder who relies on the PB breeder to do the functional evaluation for them. Until those in the association who are in charge of making decisions decides to listen to the commercial breeder who is the consumer in this case things won't get any better. As one breeder said he is tired of having association representatives and university professors telling him what he should raise and how he should do it. Like I've said before it is easy to express opinions when you have no skin in the game and don't have to worry about making a loan payment. Sadly those who do have little say in the end. The only say we have is to not buy the promoted flavor of the month. |
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Post by strojanherefords on Aug 6, 2014 11:30:37 GMT -6
I got the Hereford World and the Red Angus magazine a few days ago. Based on the magazines alone, I would rather buy Red Angus than Herefords. The Red Angus magazine had a feature on how to develop a crossbreeding program, while the Hereford World seems to be a vanity press. The association does not seem interested in teaching its members the basics of good phenotype. I did not know about eye set until it was discussed on this board.
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