Australian road trip.

[Sudsy]

A few observations from the roadtrip I shared with Larso last week.

Travelled 750 km north from central NSW to Northern Tablelands, from 200m asl to 1200m asl.

Visited 3 hereford studs, 1 horn, 2 pollies.

Firstly the horn stud.
On the day of our visit they were holding their annual on farm sale.
A somewhat disappionting experience. Bulls were generally D+ muscle score, with maybe 5 - 10% nudging into a C- muscle score. This, coupled with frame 8s, excessive bone and overfeeding is not representing the whiteface breed in the best possible light.
Another interesting observation was the average age of the crowd, well in excess of 60, and one other breeder thought north of 70, (only 2 registered buyers under the age of 50). Not 1 single solitary angus breeder in sight.
I overheard another attendee state "this is like walking back in time to the mid 80's.

We then departed to visit 2 poll studs.
These 2 studs hold a combined annual on farm sale numbering possibly 90 bulls.
25 -30% of the bulls displayed a muscle score of B-, the balance a solid C+.
Their bull sale is in 2 weeks time, however, they did state that approximately 90% of the bulls go in to angus herds.
Moderate frame, well muscled bulls with a spartan approach to preparation (feeding).

No doubt some of the horn hereford breeders are doing a wonderful job, (3 or 4 breeders come readily to mind). By the same token I could name well in excess of 20 pollie breeders who jump readily to mind who are taking the battle right up to the blacks and starting to stem the tide.
It is at such times I question why we merged with the hornies, we actually thought their cattle were much better than what they have turned out to be. Knowing what I know now, I for one would not have voted in favour of the merger. All in all, they have proven to be a hindrance in our battle against the angus, they represent the very reasons commercial cattlemen left our breed in droves.
I look at this site and view pictures of what the horn breeders are doing in the states with a great deal of envy, if only we could swap our horn breeders for the horn breeders on this site. I do believe our horn cattle would disappoint you more-so than they do us. We could really do with your quality of cattle in our quest to claw back market share from the angus.


Hoekland,
You mentioned a possible problem with breedplan in Aust, we were told on our trip north that the two technical officers with breedplan assigned to herefords have been seconded to the angus breed, one to oversee their junior development program, the other to oversee a cross breeding program they are about to commence.
Both of these gentlemen will be under utilised in their new assignments. Apparently Angus Aust. refer to this as a strategic move, (maybe they are starting to worry).
As a result, Breedplan Aust. have had to bring a technical officer out of retirement as a stop gap measure.
Maybe, this was the basis of the news you heard regarding breedplan.

[hoekland]

Interesting comment about the excessive bone, my problem with most poll herds (bearing in mind I am a mostly a poll breeder myself) is the lack of bone and the wrong type of muscle (I'm guilty of the wrong type of muscle too, especially a few years ago)

I like quite heavy bone, but the right kind of heavy bone, the really wrong kind of heavy bone I've seen was mostly outliers in poll herds.

[Sudsy]

Excessive Bone. Huge forearms (cannon bones), knees and front heavy,(shoulders). Sometimes known as "cow killers."
What possibly made it look worse was the lack of coverage (meat). One observer stated this was a good a cause for the compulsory non registration of females he had seen, however we live in a democracy, one can breed them however they see fit.

Please explain the connotation to "the wrong type of muscle."

[hoekland]

Short, dry, muscle (continental type) as opposed longer softer, higher yielding muscle (british type)

[Glenn]

What do you think we in the USA as horned breeders are doing better than the horned breeders in Australia? Not fishing for compliments, just curious what you see as good?

I see several horned breeders in Australia (on Facebook not HT members) that are using some L1's that I wouldn't use and I am in the L1 genepool. Just found your comment interesting in light of my observation.

[tff]

hoekland, care to share pictures of the muscle types?

[oahereford]

Jul 28, 2014 8:34:54 GMT -6 tff said:

hoekland, care to share pictures of the muscle types?

Would like to see some pics too!

[larso]

I would like you to explain a bit more on short/ dry muscle compared to long/ soft muscle also. There are plenty of commercial breeders out here who will use a continental bull as there final cross to produce a steer. There was a comment made at the sale Sudsy has been referring to by another breeder saying " they will use these bulls for 10 years find they haven't got enough meat and go off and buy a Limo to fix the problem" I'm sure this is one of the reasons Herefords have lost market share here in Aus.

[larso]

Just a thought Hoekland, may be you could refer back to the picture of the last bull you posted. In my opinion he is were I want to be, expresses enough meat but still retaining enough softness, great eye setting enough bone. ( I would love to take him to the Aus nationals next year might open a few eyes) Another very respected breeder saw a picture of him and his comment was, how can we get semen in him?

[Sudsy]

Jul 28, 2014 8:21:54 GMT -6 Glenn said:

What do you think we in the USA as horned breeders are doing better than the horned breeders in Australia? Not fishing for compliments, just curious what you see as good?

I see several horned breeders in Australia (on Facebook not HT members) that are using some L1's that I wouldn't use and I am in the L1 genepool. Just found your comment interesting in light of my observation.

Glenn, In response to your question, it appears the horn breeders on this forum are doing everything better than the majority of horn breeders here in Oz.
Most horn breeders I come across still use weight for age as their primary focus. Hear them speak, it is all about weight for age - "we get paid for weight," "the feedlotters want something with a bit of  frame so they can put meat on it," and any other number of cliches. Some are still caught up in the frame race as you Americans put it.

When I see posts and photos of the cattle on this forum, I can easily connect that to what I perceive most pollie breeders are trying to do.......meat/muscle/moderation.

In essence, I suppose what I am trying to say, most horn breeders are chasing weight through frame score, most pollies through muscle score.

I can't say for sure, but I am of the opinion the gap/divide/bias between horn and poll is far greater in Oz than in the states. Over here, 6 horn cows and 1 bull came out with the first fleet in 1788, pollies came to Oz from the states early last century (late 1920's I think, I actually should know). 
To this very day pollie breeders are still subjected to snide comments and remarks from the horn breeders with the most popular ones being along the lines of - "they are nothing but inbred circus animals," "no bone and power in pollies," "the only way to fix pollies is to put a horn bull over them," etc. etc.

Thus, the horns have chased size at the expense of all other traits resulting in bad udders, cancerous eyes, slab sided C- muscle score, bad rear wheels, (all this coming from a pollie breeder with a splattering of horn genetics throughout his herd).

Herfords have 2 nationals in Oz. the horns in Albury/Wondonga(sothern NSW), pollies in Dubbo (central NSW). 
When we merged, the horns allowed polls to show at their national, but not in the same ring, separate classes, not even a meeting of the winners in order to select overall winners. Today, that show is almost 50% polls.
The same courtesy was extended to the horn breeders by the pollies in relation to Dubbo with one stipulation, all(both horn and poll). will be judged in the same ring, to date not one single horn breeder has accepted the invitation in over a decade, and not likely too it would appear.

One of their main reasons for not coming to Dubbo is they say their cattle are not suited to the harsher environment from which the buyers come. Central Aust. is quite harsh, 250ml - 10 inches in your language, annual rainfall, hot and dry! To my knowledge, of the bos taurus cattle in this environment, pollies are the dominant players, possibly 80%, followed by shorthorns 20%, horns and angus have next to no representation.

Most of the horn breeders - but not all, are now beginning to put a %age of their cows to poll bulls, not because they want to, they have to. I would imagine our animal rights activists are possibly the strongest on the planet, thus horns, dehorning et al wiill become dirty words. Their clients wish to dehorn naturally - genetically.

In closing, the priorities expressed by yourselves are closely aligned to our own - priorities which I seldom hear from horn breeders.
We speak of meat, muscle, moderation, structure, confirmation and capacity.
In my experience, when I speak to the vast majority of horn breeders, they use terms such as size, weight for age, power, length - extra rib, bone, etc. 

The horn national is a feeding competition, so to is the poll national - but to a much lesser extent. As a matter of interest, the champion horn bull this year was a magnificent beast, he couldn't be frame scored, he was to big for the device, this would make him in excess of 9.5-10 frame score, he weighed approx 1300 kg, scanned EMA of 156 sq cm, (a world record for the white face breed we are led to believe). As I stated, a magnificent animal , however just plainly and simply to big for me. You may be able to locate he on the net, Kahluda Rambo, (unfortunately my IT skills, or lack of, don't allow/permit me to put up a link).




Glenn, you made mention of L1 genetics and the variance between your selection and those selected to come to Oz, could you shed some light on your thoughts.






 

[Deleted]

Here is a photo I found

I agree that the pollie is better for crossing with Brahman.

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

Jul 29, 2014 6:07:11 GMT -6 @jw said:

Here is a photo I found
[img alt=" " src="http://www.herefordsaustralia.com.au/Portals/0/Media/News/Horn.jpg"

Sudsy, what does 12/16 stand for?

[Sudsy]

Fmaiz, 12/16 is the rib over rump fat expressed in mm, (we are metric over here).

[Sudsy]

jw, when I mentioned pollies in inland Aus. they are not neccesarily crossed with bos indicus,
I was refering to the straight pollie cattle on the big farms (measured by the sq km).
Some guys run up to 16000 - 18000 pollies under those conditions - by the way I may have inadvertantly increased the annual rainfall to 10 inches, I was told it is more like 8 inches - 320 ml.

One of the bigger operaters attends the pollie national every 2nd year to purchase approx. 35 - 40 bulls.
We are led to believe this is the major reason the horns do not support the pollie national, on the whole they can't handle the tough environments the pollies end up in.
May come as a surprise to some in the states, however if you were to invetigate through your contacts in Aus. this will be confirmed.
Regards Sudsy.

[Deleted]

Thanks for sharing your story and experiences Sudsy.

My comment was based strictly on the two photos, the Polled Hereford Champion is more moderately framed with a hip height of around 55-56 inches? The Horned Hereford Champion is easily 61-63 inches at the hip.

One of the problems we are facing with Brahman is the hip height is out of sync with commercial herds. I have seen daughters of Troubador 933 that could only be bred AI because they were approaching 70 inches at the hip.

I also believe the pollies are better in high humidity than the horned, but that is a subjective assessment.

[larso]

You got those height measurements pretty accurate JW. The judge was a Shorthorn breeder, he judged the Horn's in the morning the Polly's in the afternoon. A few people thought he must have had a liquid lunch cause he seemed to move the goal posts when he judged the Polly's.

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

Jul 30, 2014 3:12:56 GMT -6 Sudsy said:

Fmaiz, 12/16 is the rib over rump fat expressed in mm, (we are metric over here).

So that will be 16mm (0.63 inches) of fat at the 12th rib? (we have been always metric here)

JW, you have the height of the bulls at the lower right side of the sign. Divide by 2,53 and you get it in inches. On the upper left side is the weihgt in kg. Divide by 0,453 and you have it in pounds.

[Sudsy]

Fmaiz, that is correct, 16 mm at the rib, 12mm on the rump. my error, sorry.

The No. on bottom rhs of chest plate is the raw data scan of ema expressed in sq. mm

[Sudsy]

Fmaiz, I thought the states were imperial measurements?

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

Jul 30, 2014 7:09:46 GMT -6 Sudsy said:

Fmaiz, I thought the states were imperial measurements?

I think you are right, but I am in Argentina.

[George]