|
Post by elkwc on Jan 28, 2015 17:25:53 GMT -6
The dockage on Hereford cattle in this area (Pratt, Dodge,Woodward) seems to be at calf weights and age and has been that way for a number of years. Once you get the cattle to feeder weight they will sell right with the market. A lot of the buyers will tell you it is a health issue. It makes no sense but Hereford cattle have the reputation of more health problems at calf stage. One theory that may make a little sense is that owners of the straight Hereford calves in the past were some of the last to adopt a pre conditioning program. Like some of the others have said, I have seen instances where the owner said "Do not sort by color" and the cattle sell right with the market. Over the last six months I've watched propably 5-6 thousand head sell at Woodward. I agree that on feeders the dockage overall is on quality and not on color. I saw one small bunch of Herefords steer calves that were popping good top their weight class while we were there one day. Think they weighed 460 and can't remember the number but just a few head. And besides 1 or 2 other singles that were good quality they have been the only good quality Herefords I've seen sell except for a few sprinkled in groups of black baldies and blacks. I had never seen a straight Hereford cut off until the sale two weeks ago. The buyer asked for a poor quality Hereford heifer to be cut off and resold after he had purchased them. So she was cut off after they sold and as they were leaving the ring and not before. I imagine I have seen less than 300 head of straight Herefords sell by themselves. All but maybe 25 have been feeder weights. Above 650. I saw one small straight Hereford bunch of feeders that were docked but it was for the quality and type and not their color. They were frame 4 and light muscled. Those mixed in groups usually sell as good as any if the quality if is there. At least this is what I've seen and what the feeder buyers and others that I have talked to have told me. I've been told the story about health problems but the buyers I talk to say that isn't a factor with them. They say that many of their clients don't want Herefords because they believe they won't gain as well. As one buyer stated it is hard to change the view that some have. And without demand he has to pay what his clients will allow. But some of the buyers think it is getting better. It is hard for me to say from the very limited numbers of straight Herefords I've seen. I do know that the F1 Black baldie heifers are outselling anything. Talked to a man Saturday who had sold all of the heifers straight off the cows he manages for a top of $1,950 and an average of $1,850 in late August and early Sept before the market jumped so much. Said they weighed 550-600 off the cows. Have heard of a group of bred commercial heifers 5 months along that sold for $3,650. I saw some very nice polled bulls this last weekend in two different herds. I was encouraged by what I saw. Now I know they are out there although the numbers maybe small. The last bulls were as heavy as any Hereford bulls I've seen in several years.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 10:12:50 GMT -6
We have these high calf and feeder prices yet there are still guys out there out of touch with the market thinking they can buy a good herd bull for $2000-2500 when you can pretty much send a yearling to the sale barn and get that price by the pound right now.
|
|
|
Post by fivestarherefords on Jan 29, 2015 10:39:27 GMT -6
We have these high calf and feeder prices yet there are still guys out there out of touch with the market thinking they can buy a good herd bull for $2000-2500 when you can pretty much send a yearling to the sale barn and get that price by the pound right now. That's why we are seriously considering getting out of the bull market altogether. We try to sell 8-10 bulls a year off the farm but when you ask 2500 for a bull they act like you are robbing them. I know it's not like that elsewhere but that's how it is here in WV. And we're not talking about bull calves, these are 18 month old bulls weighing 1500-1600 pounds.
|
|
|
Post by timbernt on Jan 29, 2015 12:01:36 GMT -6
Price discovery on bulls is a real problem. Those of us in the Hereford bull business selling private treaty have a lot of work to establish fair market value. That is why I get so disgusted with the current rush to smaller cattle. I am pretty sure the buyers at Van Newkirks were spending over $11000 per bull with the idea that the bulls would increase performance. Every Hereford bull that is sold with make believe EPD's, no growth, and a big gut full of feed diminishes our standing in the commercial world. The market is there for the right kind of Hereford bull; it is getting really hard to find them and hard to determine value. A couple of hours ago I talked to a producer running 800 cows. Mostly Angus/Simmental. He has gotten a quite a few bulls from me, but continually gets sidetracked. About 5 years ago he bought 5 Angus bulls for $8000 each thinking they were the answer. He spent a bunch of money on "UltraBlack" bulls. Then a bunch for Brangus bulls. My Herefords cost him a lot less. This morning he said he just figured his adjusted yearling weights on last years steers that have been on a growing ration. The Hereford sired steers weighed 1010 lbs, the Brangus sired 990 lbs, the UltraBlack sired 980 lbs, and all he would say about the Angus sired was that they were way back. I can assure you that if the Hereford sired calves were comparable to the Angus he would not be back for more Hereford bulls.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 12:50:31 GMT -6
It's not that we're looking to get the big prices the big name places get on their sales, it's just a slap in the face when you have a quality bull at a reasonable price and some idiot thinks he should be priced the same you could get if you sent him to slaughter. If you really think you can get a good bull at or just above slaughter price it's probably not a bull you should be using.
I shared a story here this fall about the 4 year old proven herd sire we originally bought from the Rausch sale that we were trying to sell and some guy told us we had him overpriced and offered us essentially the same or maybe even less than we would have got had we just sent him to the sale barn which we told him for that price we'd rather just send him to the sale barn than keep him active. Fortunately another Hereford breeder in the state with a small herd bought him at a fair price and considering what the yearling and 2 year old bull market is right now probably saved some money by going with a proven bull that still has some good years left than probably having to pay nearly twice as much for a comparable young bull.
|
|
|
Post by timbernt on Jan 29, 2015 18:14:49 GMT -6
sph, I fully understand what you are saying. In my opinion the Hereford bull market is so fractured we each have to prove the value of our bulls to each new commercial producer that comes on our place to buy a bull. If the first crop of feeder calves is as good as they should be you then have a customer that is willing to pay for value received. We just need to be sure the bull produces the value added feeders that he should. As far as the guys trying to buy bulls at steer price, we all have to decide how much time we are willing to waste with those guys. I seldom have that anymore, but would be tempted to agree to the price. Then I would run the bull in the chute and castrate him before going on the trailer. I think the satisfaction I would get from the look on the buyers face would be well worth the loss of a sale. Tell him if he wants to pay steer price he should have a steer.
|
|
|
Post by larso on Jan 30, 2015 0:09:08 GMT -6
We have these high calf and feeder prices yet there are still guys out there out of touch with the market thinking they can buy a good herd bull for $2000-2500 when you can pretty much send a yearling to the sale barn and get that price by the pound right now. That's why we are seriously considering getting out of the bull market altogether. We try to sell 8-10 bulls a year off the farm but when you ask 2500 for a bull they act like you are robbing them. I know it's not like that elsewhere but that's how it is here in WV. And we're not talking about bull calves, these are 18 month old bulls weighing 1500-1600 pounds. There is a very good way of dealing with buyers like that. Just say to them " can't you afford to pay that?" You watch them get embarrassed. Put your price on and stick to it, if your confident the bull is worth the money, don't get into a discussion on price. Other wise you end up wasting half a day with a bunch of tyre kickers, who still want all the guarantees that go with selling a bull.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 7:39:20 GMT -6
That's why we are seriously considering getting out of the bull market altogether. We try to sell 8-10 bulls a year off the farm but when you ask 2500 for a bull they act like you are robbing them. I know it's not like that elsewhere but that's how it is here in WV. And we're not talking about bull calves, these are 18 month old bulls weighing 1500-1600 pounds. There is a very good way of dealing with buyers like that. Just say to them " can't you afford to pay that?" You watch them get embarrassed. Put your price on and stick to it, if your confident the bull is worth the money, don't get into a discussion on price. Other wise you end up wasting half a day with a bunch of tyre kickers, who still want all the guarantees that go with selling a bull. Oh yeah, we won't let buyers intimidate us with a weak offer. It's just an annoyance to deal with a guy that is out of touch with the market and you wonder what that guy eventually wound up buying or if he was slick enough to talk down another breeder to sell for less which really is not a good thing if your fellow breeders are weakening the market by doing that. We know what they are worth and we know there is a buyer out there that will agree we are asking a fair price. Don't need to take the first dollar that comes through the door just for the sake of making a sale, the right buyer usually comes along.
I got a kick out of your idea timbernt, could even tell the guy you'll feed him a little longer and come back in a month to pick him up and in the meantime castrate him and see if he even notices when he comes to pick him up. LOL Would take some guts to do something like that, losing out on potential income while looking like a jackhole probably not worth it.
|
|
|
Post by timbernt on Jan 30, 2015 14:22:42 GMT -6
I honestly think it would be worth it just one time to see the reaction. If I do it I will let you know.
|
|
|
Post by jrfinley on Jan 30, 2015 20:46:43 GMT -6
That's why we are seriously considering getting out of the bull market altogether. We try to sell 8-10 bulls a year off the farm but when you ask 2500 for a bull they act like you are robbing them. I know it's not like that elsewhere but that's how it is here in WV. And we're not talking about bull calves, these are 18 month old bulls weighing 1500-1600 pounds. There is a very good way of dealing with buyers like that. Just say to them " can't you afford to pay that?" You watch them get embarrassed. Put your price on and stick to it, if your confident the bull is worth the money, don't get into a discussion on price. Other wise you end up wasting half a day with a bunch of tyre kickers, who still want all the guarantees that go with selling a bull. This is very discouraging to a guy in SE Ohio not far from 5 Star that is wanting to get back into the Hereford business. I knew selling bull would be tough but did not know it could be that bad. Just really unsure what direction to go in when I do start, really don't like the show road as they change type wherever the wind blows, guess when I do start I will raise the type of cattle I like and believe will make good beef and hopefully people will see value in the product I produce. If I can't sell bulls I know I can sell beef as I already have a small pork farm to freezer operation.
|
|
|
Post by jrfinley on Jan 30, 2015 20:47:56 GMT -6
I honestly think it would be worth it just one time to see the reaction. If I do it I will let you know. Tim, if you do it t I hope you have someone video it. Would love to see it.
|
|
|
Post by elkwc on Jan 30, 2015 21:11:19 GMT -6
During our recent bull search we haven't jewed any. If the asking price is more than we feel we can give we thank them for their time showing their cattle to us and leave. Many times it isn't the price that is the reason we don't select the bull. There are many reasons from not the right type, too small, light muscling, unsound, ect. And in this recent search we insisted on a polled bull with no scurs. I don't degrade a breeders bull either. He may think he is ok and in my opinion he is light muscled or unsound. I have heard a few things that make me wonder a little. An Angus breeder was telling me recently that he was looking at a bull in an upcoming sale from one of the known breeders of bulls in the USA. He called to see how the daughters of his sire were producing. He was told that he was behind the times. That with the rapidly changing genetics that by the time the daughters were producing a sire would be replaced. I guess I don't understand that thinking. Guess I'm behind the times also.
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Feb 5, 2015 9:12:59 GMT -6
It's a long story, but we wound up selling about the top 1/3 of our calves right off of the cow, so now we only have 20 bulls to sell. My uncle is such a nice guy, he can't negotiate a deal to save his life, and he wasn't keeping up with where the market was. Last year, they were selling 18 month old bulls for $1800. We can't afford to do business that way, that doesn't even pay the bull's feed bill, much less his mother or the replacement heifers we keep. I read somewhere that a bull is worth the price of 3-5 feeder calves at weaning. Some people have complained, but most of the guys that called have been pretty understanding of the price increase.
The other day, Vernie called a guy, and he said, "I like to buy the best bulls I can, do you have one that really stands out?" Vernie said "Yes sir I do" "What's the price on him?" "$6,000“ "Now you do know that I'm a valued, long time, repeat customer." "Yes sir I do, that's why you're getting the first call."
He didn't say much after that, but he's coming out to look at them. We have 15 guys on the list, and new ones calling all the time. Wish we had kept the others, but that's how it goes I guess.
|
|