lwa42
Fresh Calf
Posts: 26 
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Post by lwa42 on Jan 3, 2014 22:53:16 GMT -6
If a bull has only one testicle but is fertile, will only having only 1 effect the number of cows he can breed? Is it ever acceptable to use a bull with only one testicle? I ask because we visited a hereford breeder who had a herdsire with only 1 testicle. I found it very unusual and a little surprising.
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Post by ellettherefords on Jan 4, 2014 12:53:33 GMT -6
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Sitz top bull last year only have one stone and they said it wouldn't affect it.
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 4, 2014 14:06:13 GMT -6
as far as the the American Society of Theriogenology (what most cow vets belong to)is concerned a one nutted bull can not, I REPEAT CAN NOT, be passed as a breeder on a breeding soundness exam.
furthermore, from personal experience. there is an angus breedr in this county who 9 or 10 years ago sold a bull out of the pen of pass out/flunked BSE's/ect pen after his sale to a nieghbor of mine. this bull has only one nut. now the vet who failed the bull because he only had one nut also happened to to my vet, the bull customers vet, and the angus breeders vet (at the time) so I have been told from every angle the deal on this bull but thats another story. yes the bull did get most of the small package of cows he was turned out with bred. so far so good.....until branding the next spring. that one nutted bull sired some calves that were one nutted as well. now for those of you who don't cut calves yourself and have the vet do it or band your calves I will enumerate some (those of you who still cut em with a knife at brandin' know were I going)
as I was cutting calves when we first started branding, the 3rd calf I went to cut I couldn't find the 2nd nut, worked and worked and worked and couldn't find it. I hollered at Don (whose calves we were branding) who was draggin calves at the time, he come over got down as dug around trying to find it and couldn't, so he wrote the calf's number down in his calving book and the ground crew turned him loose. about a dozen calves later, same thing. then Don goes to cussing (and he don't cuss very often) and proceeds to tell us all about the one nutted bull he had bought the previous spring. when we got done branding that morning we had had 7 or 8 of em.
moral of the story--theres more than one reason of you aint got 2 nuts, the vets won't pass em
I think our resident Hereford Talk vet for the great state of Missouri can expound on this subject way more than I can.
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ghr
Fresh Calf
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Post by ghr on Jan 4, 2014 15:25:51 GMT -6
We had a bull that froze a testicle bad last winter and that testicle totally degenerated. When we semen tested in March the vet failed him but insurance company wanted us to wait for another 60 days. We did this and took him to the vet they wanted to retest him. When we retested he scored 96% and we drew and froze semen on him. The vet classified him as "decision deferred", the insurance company completely walked away on our claim. They sd they do not care how many cows the bull can service. If he can service one he is classified as good. So we insured a 2 nutted bull and ended up with a 1 nutted bull. We turned him out with about 20 cows. He worked for about 2 weeks then lost his drive to breed cows. He was the kinda bull that would herd cows before and very aggressive breeder. Contacted insurance compant and basically got told it isnt their issue but yet they would not re-insure him with 1nut. So basically i say be careful. We ended up losing$18,000 on this bull because insurance company would not honour their policy.
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Post by timbernt on Jan 4, 2014 18:40:19 GMT -6
Cryptorchidism has been described in Herefords since the 40's. Supposedly autosomal recessive. Obviously the expression is sex-linked. The right testicle is the one retained because the right primordial gonad starts out more cranial like the right kidney. They are a pain in the a$$ to castrate as Tom said. A breeder who knowingly uses a cryptorchid carrier should be ----, just like those who use bulls with inguinal hernias. If the left testicle is missing, I doubt it is inherited. Angus breeders like to make excuses like another bull ran under another one in the alley and squished a testicle on the bull in front. I bought that one time and passed a 3 year old bull which he sold to another breeder for $6K. The bull bred fine, but the remaining testicle became almost double normal size. No sign of problems in the offspring, but the new owner had to talk about me passing a one-nutted bull whenever I saw him. At any rate, bulls are not so hard to find that we need to keep bulls that don't have two testicles.
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Post by picketwire on Jan 5, 2014 1:07:58 GMT -6
Great info to have. Hopefully all seedstock people in all breeds would take it to heart but sadly the chances of that happening are slim. The only thing I can say for certain is it won't happen here.
ghr, if you don't mind my asking, what insurance deal walked away from that policy. We may just be lucky but we have had very good experiences with our insurance purchases. Haven't had many claims so that might help more than anything, but the deal you talk about is just plain chicken$#!* for an insurance outfit to pull.
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lwa42
Fresh Calf
Posts: 26
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Post by lwa42 on Jan 5, 2014 2:11:21 GMT -6
I believe this particular breeder said that he didn't know the bull only had one when he bought him but found out later on. I am not sure who would buy a bull and not look at his nuts though.
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doh
Fresh Calf
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Post by doh on Jan 5, 2014 8:37:41 GMT -6
We can relate to insurance running backwards on a claim.Our main sire injured his right testicle this summer. After lots of rest an repeated seman checks he is done, but there our a few viable cells left so he could possibly settle one cow therefor in their eyes he is still a breeder.I'll read the fine print next time!
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ghr
Fresh Calf
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Post by ghr on Jan 5, 2014 13:41:13 GMT -6
We were insured through Loyds of London. Had the bull insured for everything so it was a 15% premium. Insurance company basically said read the fine print. Wasnt much we could do about it. Will never see us insure another bull though. We have only ever had one other claim over 25 years. So i think they have got enough money out of us.
Moral of story is dont rely on a one nutted bull or an insurance company. Both will cause you alot of grief and cost you money!!
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Post by bdvorak on Jan 5, 2014 15:35:11 GMT -6
Had a herd bull bout 10-15 years ago, sired bout 25% of his bull calves w/ one nut in the sack, one on the belly. What a pain in the ass that was. Didn't keep very many bull calves outta him, didn't take long to figure out it was hereditary.
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 5, 2014 17:49:35 GMT -6
It's about time you showed your face around here again Boyd.
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 5, 2014 17:56:21 GMT -6
Great info to have. Hopefully all seedstock people in all breeds would take it to heart but sadly the chances of that happening are slim. The only thing I can say for certain is it won't happen here. ghr, if you don't mind my asking, what insurance deal walked away from that policy. We may just be lucky but we have had very good experiences with our insurance purchases. Haven't had many claims so that might help more than anything, but the deal you talk about is just plain chicken$#!* for an insurance outfit to pull. same expereince here as TJ. we've always used Harding and Harding, but our policy's only cover death or permenant diblitating injury, not fertility or the ability to breed. the couple times we have ever had to put in a cliam with them over the years either with dad, myself or Cedar Creek, they have always paid. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 19:06:05 GMT -6
It's about time you showed your face around here again Boyd. Maybe that wind chill dropped low enough to force him into the house. |
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Post by bdvorak on Jan 5, 2014 22:24:32 GMT -6
It's about time you showed your face around here again Boyd. Maybe that wind chill dropped low enough to force him into the house. Oh, I check up on all of ya now and then. It has been a little busy try'n to get ready for a bull sale in between these stupid cold snaps. |
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 5, 2014 22:50:26 GMT -6
Maybe that wind chill dropped low enough to force him into the house. Oh, I check up on all of ya now and then. It has been a little busy try'n to get ready for a bull sale in between these stupid cold snaps. nah, your just hiding from Jenny. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 13:03:44 GMT -6
as far as the the American Society of Theriogenology (what most cow vets belong to)is concerned a one nutted bull can not, I REPEAT CAN NOT, be passed as a breeder on a breeding soundness exam. furthermore, from personal experience. there is an angus breedr in this county who 9 or 10 years ago sold a bull out of the pen of pass out/flunked BSE's/ect pen after his sale to a nieghbor of mine. this bull has only one nut. now the vet who failed the bull because he only had one nut also happened to to my vet, the bull customers vet, and the angus breeders vet (at the time) so I have been told from every angle the deal on this bull but thats another story. yes the bull did get most of the small package of cows he was turned out with bred. so far so good.....until branding the next spring. that one nutted bull sired some calves that were one nutted as well. now for those of you who don't cut calves yourself and have the vet do it or band your calves I will enumerate some (those of you who still cut em with a knife at brandin' know were I going) as I was cutting calves when we first started branding, the 3rd calf I went to cut I couldn't find the 2nd nut, worked and worked and worked and couldn't find it. I hollered at Don (whose calves we were branding) who was draggin calves at the time, he come over got down as dug around trying to find it and couldn't, so he wrote the calf's number down in his calving book and the ground crew turned him loose. about a dozen calves later, same thing. then Don goes to cussing (and he don't cuss very often) and proceeds to tell us all about the one nutted bull he had bought the previous spring. when we got done branding that morning we had had 7 or 8 of em. moral of the story--theres more than one reason of you aint got 2 nuts, the vets won't pass em I think our resident Hereford Talk vet for the great state of Missouri can expound on this subject way more than I can. Probably the best answer in this thread. If anyone is keeping a bull born with only 1 testicle I don't care how good he looks it's probably going to be passed down as a genetic defect and there is NO way a vet should let it pass a BSE. For as many discussions there is about defects on this board it should be a no brainer that you cut a 1 nut bull and send him to market as a feeder calf and you probably would want to take a close look at his pedigree and make sure it's not something you are going to see more of. Knowingly passing on defects is one way to ruin both your program's reputation as well as the breed's reputation too. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 23:27:44 GMT -6
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Sitz top bull last year only have one stone and they said it wouldn't affect it. Please show me the evidence that Sitz top seller had a single seed. |
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lwa42
Fresh Calf
Posts: 26
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Post by lwa42 on Jan 7, 2014 11:05:20 GMT -6
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Post by Glenn on Jan 7, 2014 11:26:17 GMT -6
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Sitz top bull last year only have one stone and they said it wouldn't affect it. Please show me the evidence that Sitz top seller had a single seed. |
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Post by strojanherefords on Jan 7, 2014 14:56:36 GMT -6
If you propagate an animal that has an accident or fails a BSE regardless of cause, you are setting yourself up for more problems in the future.
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 7, 2014 20:11:47 GMT -6
you know in all the years and all thousands of bulls I have been around I can never remember one who suffered and injury that resulted in losing one of his testicles. I'm not saying it can't happpen as it obvisiosly did in the bull that created this whole thread or the Sitz bull. but it sure seems like I might be a little more crusty, cranky & intolerant than a bunch of you fellers, if something happens to one, I just get rid of em. I may not know how it happened, nor may I know why, but I do know somewhere something went wrong with that individual and didn't with the rest of em so I have no intention of propogating what ever it was so i just cull em. And I sure as hell don't want to be-a trying to explain about a one-nutted bull in the yearling pen to a prospective buyer.
the other thing, in all the bulls I have been around I have never seen one freeze his nuts and it can get damn cold out here on the high plains, I can remember week long windchills of -35 or 40 (and the coverage of the cold snap back east right now just makes me laugh, come out here sometime and expereince our cold snaps or for that matter what Ace,Justin or Byron go thru each winter) and snow belly deep at times too. I know it can happen and I have heard stories of it at bull tests without wind protection and/or bedding and way back when I was i kid happening to some of the first Char bulls coming into high elevation when we were still out on the western slope but I guess it leads me to wondering what the were the circumstances that lead to him freezing lefty.
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ghr
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Post by ghr on Jan 7, 2014 21:49:34 GMT -6
Not sure if that is directed at me for looking after my bulls or what, but our bulls are bedded very well and we have lots of windbreaks. When this bull froze his testicle it was -55 windchill and the bulls had got fighting and this bull was pouting that night and layed by a bale feeder instead of the bedding area. And yes i will continue to use the bull through AI regardless of what you think. He was born with 2 nuts and all his sires offspring and all his offspring have 2 nuts. And by the way it gets colder here than northern Montana and Southern Alberta.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 22:08:18 GMT -6
Thanks - very interesting. |
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Post by bltherf on Jan 7, 2014 22:36:03 GMT -6
Not sure if that is directed at me for looking after my bulls or what, but our bulls are bedded very well and we have lots of windbreaks. When this bull froze his testicle it was -55 windchill and the bulls had got fighting and this bull was pouting that night and layed by a bale feeder instead of the bedding area. And yes i will continue to use the bull through AI regardless of what you think. He was born with 2 nuts and all his sires offspring and all his offspring have 2 nuts. And by the way it gets colder here than northern Montana and Southern Alberta. AS sometimes happens in this long threads we can all tend to get a bit off track from the main points that started it all. When we began talking about bulls with genetic defects for one nuts, I think its a no brainer, don't overthink the situation, don't make excuses, just get rid of them. As was mentioned in one reply, if the rest of the bunch can be fine under the same circumstances, don't make excuses for the exceptions. Same for doing ability, udders, feet, whatever. The situation ghr refers to is quite different, a normal bull that suffers a specific injury later in his life I would have no problem using, nothing genetic about a-40 frozen turd for a bedsheet . Rare thing to happen , but it does. We gets lots of -30 to -40 wind chill over a winter, and its amazing we don't have more problems. Seems to affect the older bulls more if anything is going to come up with a scabbed sack in the spring. Younger bulls fare a lot better, but I know lots of commercial ranchers that just kick them into a brush coulee for the winter up here and seem to make out fine most of the time. |
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 8, 2014 0:21:04 GMT -6
no I was referring to the bull in Sitz's sale about culling em instead of selling to someone else. but I was curious as to how it happened on your bull.
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