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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 10:28:12 GMT -6
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Post by greenore on Feb 15, 2013 11:01:27 GMT -6
i see it now Genetic t352 lad 1b
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 21:49:52 GMT -6
Better get the HY test result before you use him. There is quite abit of stuff back there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 22:38:54 GMT -6
ya know i get that semen catalog every year. usually just flip thru it to see how many hereford bulls are in there just to see if the local semen company might be offering more hereford bulls or as a gauge of what they might be sensing. anyhow - i've never seen a bull like that advertised in this catalog. it really got me thinking.
also - the frame 2.7 score. i really don't think i've ever seen a frame 2.7 hereford. don't know anything about the trask cattle. and this all kind of ties into what i've mentioned on here lately and what i was trying to ask hoekland. i get to see probably the two most respected L1 herds in the world, i get to see the canadian herds, very little polled cattle. i've seen pictures of cattle danny miller has shared on here and read about and you just don't hear of many other programs that are doing what he is doing. he's got linebred victors and i get the sense he's culled out the problems and kept the traits that he needs or works best in his area (i'd say got his finger on the carcass end too). so i see this picture of this frame score 2.7 bull and i am under the impression that program has gone down a linebreeding path and selected for their "vision" and it is some much different/unique. so what i'm getting at is has anyone ever seen a polled hereford program that has made the same efforts to breed polled cattle that would have the same traits commercial ranchers of the north american plains need? or better yet is there a straight polled commercial herd in that region that is paying its bills raising commercial polled herefords? and i don't mean just enough polled to keep the horns off, i more mean a program that has it perfected. i don't mean to be derogatory.
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Post by Trailmaster on Feb 16, 2013 7:33:38 GMT -6
Just to look at the bull without knowing his frame score he looks kind of impressive. Except for his eyes sticking out of his head like someone just hit him in the ass with a hot shot. I suppose if he could waddle around well enough to get a mouth full of grass he probably would hold together pretty well. What do you think a pot load of his calves would bring if you ran them threw a sale barn?
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Post by timbernt on Feb 16, 2013 8:13:31 GMT -6
Ace - I am surrounded by modern polled cattle. If I want to go see Hereford cattle within driving distance it is what you saw in the Universal catalog (3 and 4 frame). I put in an embryo for a polled breeder 12 hours ago that is the same pattern and no, the they don't work for commercial cowmen. As one of the most prominent sale managers (mentioned in an earlier blog) told me about 15 years ago that I need to understand that polled breeders are in it for the social aspect and have no relationship to production agriculture. His take was that he makes a pretty good living helping them with their hobby. It hasn't changed.
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Post by bltherf on Feb 16, 2013 8:50:46 GMT -6
Extremes in any trait always bring problems. It's been that way for a long time and will continue to be. My problem with looking at this earlier polled bull (and many that are being produced and promoted today ) is not just frame size, but the combination of small size and larger muscle on the same frame. This leads to a drastic decrease in mobility. This speaks to the point about what traits are needed by the ranchers of the Northern Plains, (or anywhere really ) well its MOBILITY.! Many of our commercial bull customers, (and others I'm sure) run breeding pastures over thousands of acres. Here 10 and 12 section fields are not uncommon. These cattle need to walk and find feed, water, and breeding opportunities. And I don't think its as simple as limiting this trait to just polled cattle. Examples can be found in both sides of the breed if you try. Years ago in Montana the Spidel and Vescovi polled cattle were some of the hardiest and most optimal framed cattle out there, and that influence still benefits the breed today thru some breeders in that state and elsewhere.
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Post by kph on Feb 16, 2013 9:53:37 GMT -6
I'm not going to do the "horned- polled" fight, I was afraid that's what this site was going to be and it seems a lot of threads are leaning that way. I'll just say this and leave you to it. I have around 100 straight polled registered cows, the herd is 70 years old this year. I've maybe had 2 horned calves in the last 10 years. My average frame score on all the calves this year was right on 6.0, average yearling weight on the bulls 1208, heifers 853. Average ribeye on the bulls was 13.33 giving them an avg. REA/CWT of 110. Avg. WDA on the bulls 3.30 I would put my herd up against any in the country for milk and udder quality. Its not perfect, it's a lifelong and then some task to get there but I'll open my gates to any one of you who wants to evaluate my herd.I suggest you take me up on that before you say there's no good Polled Hereford cattle out there. Les Krogstad
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Post by beefman on Feb 16, 2013 10:08:45 GMT -6
Damndest thing I ever seen! Made me remember the " Comprest " days and I have said before that was not a good time for this old man. There is no place for extremes in our industry other than somebody playing games. Also would like to know where kph is located,please?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 11:20:29 GMT -6
ya know i get that semen catalog every year. usually just flip thru it to see how many hereford bulls are in there just to see if the local semen company might be offering more hereford bulls or as a gauge of what they might be sensing. anyhow - i've never seen a bull like that advertised in this catalog. it really got me thinking. also - the frame 2.7 score. i really don't think i've ever seen a frame 2.7 hereford. don't know anything about the trask cattle. and this all kind of ties into what i've mentioned on here lately and what i was trying to ask hoekland. i get to see probably the two most respected L1 herds in the world, i get to see the canadian herds, very little polled cattle. i've seen pictures of cattle danny miller has shared on here and read about and you just don't hear of many other programs that are doing what he is doing. he's got linebred victors and i get the sense he's culled out the problems and kept the traits that he needs or works best in his area (i'd say got his finger on the carcass end too). so i see this picture of this frame score 2.7 bull and i am under the impression that program has gone down a linebreeding path and selected for their "vision" and it is some much different/unique. so what i'm getting at is has anyone ever seen a polled hereford program that has made the same efforts to breed polled cattle that would have the same traits commercial ranchers of the north american plains need? or better yet is there a straight polled commercial herd in that region that is paying its bills raising commercial polled herefords? and i don't mean just enough polled to keep the horns off, i more mean a program that has it perfected. i don't mean to be derogatory. I think having few large polled Hereford herds run as commercial operations today is a product of the times and the convulsions within the industry over the last 30+ years. In the early 80's we saw a herd like Blanchard and Lindgren's 900 head linebred Banner Domino herd dispersed because the cattle couldn't compete with the continentals and just weren't in demand. They worked very well under range conditions and were used as foundation stock for many polled purebred operations. The show ring popularity in the 80s also didn't help promote the existence of practical range type polled Hereford cattle. Schutte's at Guide Rock, NE have a pretty good herd going, alot of them are just a generation or two from the show ring, but are still run in a pretty pratical mannner. Kucera's Beaver Creek, KBCR, that appears in the ancestry of many Topp cattle, has a good sized Sand Hills herd. They may be grained harder than is practical, but most of the big name Hereford herds you mention are pushing grain through them to get them to perform the way they do also. I think the genetics are available to restock ranges with practical polled Hereford cattle if the market will support it, with herds like Danny's and several other smaller operations that could be expanded.
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Post by kph on Feb 16, 2013 11:55:37 GMT -6
Damndest thing I ever seen! Made me remember the " Comprest " days and I have said before that was not a good time for this old man. There is no place for extremes in our industry other than somebody playing games. Also would like to know where kph is located,please? Ferile MN, Northwest part.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 12:37:52 GMT -6
and that influence still benefits the breed today thru some breeders in that state and elsewhere. i like those nice subtle gestures there bacon, lettuce, tomato... almost so much as to as go undected.
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Post by timbernt on Feb 16, 2013 13:01:25 GMT -6
I am not interested in the polled vs horned thing either. I have what I think is a really good polled calf I probably will use (he happens to be a double bred 9A) and I intend to transition into some polled cattle. What I am trying to say is in this part of the world there is no relationship between the real world and the Hereford cattle (all Polled) being produced. 3 weeks ago today I was in our annual state board meeting listening to my fellow board members discuss how they were going to use what they saw in Denver. As I sat there all I could think about was how little connection they had to production agriculture and the fact that they are the face of Herefords in Missouri.
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Post by bltherf on Feb 16, 2013 13:17:06 GMT -6
and that influence still benefits the breed today thru some breeders in that state and elsewhere. i like those nice subtle gestures there bacon, lettuce, tomato... almost so much as to as go undected. glad to see it wasn't wasted on ya Ace, i assumed that knowing your background you would always be well Anchored in reality.. ;D
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Post by picketwire on Feb 16, 2013 20:44:53 GMT -6
Don't rush to judgement too fast, kph. I thought the same thing for awhile before I ante'd up and decided to start throwing in my two cents. Sounds like you have the right stuff working on your operation and that just might be link that someone is missing and didn't know where to look.
Sometimes the truth of the matter does boil down to the only difference some can see is whether or not there are horns present. In my case, we had enough customers asking about polled bulls that we tried a variety of 'modern' polled bulls in our operation and most of them were a bust. Too much birth weight and not enough growth. We did have a few that worked out alright but not enough for me to stick with it. A profitable deal just cannot have that many throw aways. Now with that being said, I don't know if it was the inability to nick within our herd or I just did not find the 'right' ones to sample, but the fact remains the polled ones did not cut the mustard here. Now to me it is a lot easier to find the horned ones that will work well and carry my herd forward with the goals I have in mind and not have to worry about how many throw aways I have to deal with. Does that make this a horned vs. polled deal? Not to me. To me it just means two things, the ones I have tried, and they are many, did not work, the ones that might work, I have yet to find.
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Post by picketwire on Feb 16, 2013 21:18:29 GMT -6
[/quote] What do you think a pot load of his calves would bring if you ran them threw a sale barn?[/quote]
Even in the recent market I don't think more than $325/hd. Take too long to fit the box. no market for three year old steers anymore.
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Post by mrvictordomino on Feb 17, 2013 7:26:56 GMT -6
Been to South America last week and didn't have a chance to respond to some comments on this thread. Ace, I know of some smaller Polled herds that are doing a good job of breeding cattle for their environments. They are not heavily advertised and most will not hear about them. As far as the Trask cattle are concerned, their is a fellow in Blairsville, GA that has started posting on CT that has probably the second largest concentration of Trask blood besides Fowken Farms of South Carolina. I will send him an invitation to this site. He has been breeding these cattle for forty-five years and I'm sure he can comment on this line. John is correct in that there has been many herds and bloodlines on the polled side that have just disappeared due to the heavy influence of the show ring on the polled side. As far as I'm concerned, especially in the decade of the eighties, we screwed up big time letting the show ring dictate the direction of the breed. Herds like Blanchard and Lindgern, Glenn Burrows, Ogeechee Farms and others are now lost forever. As far as the Polled vs. Horned deal, I don't care about that at all, I think there probably are more Horned cattle that are hardier on the range mainly due to the fact that there were more Horned breeders breeding cattle for what they were intended to do, reproduce and produce beef, not win a purple ribbon..... The article in the January HW did have some opinions that while I did appreciate them, I would think, or hope to think there are better herds out there with better udders and more consistency. Breeding cattle is a never ending process and if you think you have achieved your goal, you need to set a higher one. The comment by John Meents about the cattle being small I would tend to disagree with, but realizing that most all the herds he visits have allot of show ring type genetics I would say they would look smaller to him. They are not the 2.7 frame cattle like the bull at the top of this thread. 5-6 frame is what we would like to stay in. As far as a pure polled herd....I can recall about 7-8 horned calves out of the last 1,000 born here, and a few scurred ones as well. Not bad in my opinion considering the bloodline I am perpetuating. DM
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 8:11:29 GMT -6
My opinion is that cattle need frame scores of 5 and 6.
Horned Herefords being better than polled is a crock of sh..
Good cattle are good no matter if they have horns or not.
I do see that polled cattle would appeal to 4-H families and parents of the kids showing cattle. There are normally not enough horn calves shown in the eastern part of the states to have a class.
Polled cattle having high birth weights are a side effect of the show ring. If you are using the popular polled bulls that are show winners and polled bulls from producers that are known to breed for show winners, you will have high birth weights period.
My question to people who say the birth weights are too high, is what weight do you want from birth to yearling?
I can recommend some polled programs that probably will meet your requirements and I believe that Danny could as well.
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Post by George on Feb 17, 2013 8:31:04 GMT -6
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Post by picketwire on Feb 17, 2013 10:11:49 GMT -6
Danny, cannot disagree with anything you said in your post, LFF yours either. Never said horned was better than polled, I DID SAY in my program it has worked out that way. Never used the popular bulls either, I select for BEEF production and I selected poled bulls based on the hope that the performance ratios and numbers as well as phenotype would add to my program. I did use the word 'modern' because that is a big part of what my program is based upon, modern beef production. The results of the past few years would be very close to what kph has already listed. The bulls being a little lighter at yearling and the heifers being just a little heavier. I will not list the bulls that failed here because it serves no purpose picking on them individually but the list of polled bulls sampled includes both those who did work and those who were a bust in no particular order. 517, endurance 745, matthew 597, legend 242, prospector k085, victor 44B son (R039?) Alta genetics used to have semen on, lasalle 651 son, and a few others whose name has been forgotten. A few of these bulls were used inthe show ring, but my sampling was based on reports from the real world.
AS far as the birth wt deal any calf over 100 pounds does not keep the jewels! Additionally if they are not within 8% of the avg at both wean and yearling they lose them. Not all of them were high BW, low growth, some were low bw, low growth, some were high bw high growth and a few were moderate bw, high growth but there were just not enough of the last category to merit continuing the experiment especially when we just kept getting drier and drier and shrinking numbers. There are a handful of cows left that trace to some of these bulls that worked that now have four generations of horned blood back in them, but only one cow that continues to drop polled calves. She descends from a very solid and consistent cow family which to me just reemphasizes that good cattle are indeed good cattle. If and when mother nature allow expansion for this operation again, then a polled side of things may be considered again, but for now I will stick with what is very productive and profitable and here that is the current horned program.
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Post by George on Feb 17, 2013 10:18:16 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 10:35:43 GMT -6
Been to South America last week and didn't have a chance to respond to some comments on this thread. Ace, I know of some smaller Polled herds that are doing a good job of breeding cattle for their environments. They are not heavily advertised and most will not hear about them. As far as the Trask cattle are concerned, their is a fellow in Blairsville, GA that has started posting on CT that has probably the second largest concentration of Trask blood besides Fowken Farms of South Carolina. I will send him an invitation to this site. He has been breeding these cattle for forty-five years and I'm sure he can comment on this line. John is correct in that there has been many herds and bloodlines on the polled side that have just disappeared due to the heavy influence of the show ring on the polled side. As far as I'm concerned, especially in the decade of the eighties, we screwed up big time letting the show ring dictate the direction of the breed. Herds like Blanchard and Lindgern, Glenn Burrows, Ogeechee Farms and others are now lost forever. As far as the Polled vs. Horned deal, I don't care about that at all, I think there probably are more Horned cattle that are hardier on the range mainly due to the fact that there were more Horned breeders breeding cattle for what they were intended to do, reproduce and produce beef, not win a purple ribbon..... The article in the January HW did have some opinions that while I did appreciate them, I would think, or hope to think there are better herds out there with better udders and more consistency. Breeding cattle is a never ending process and if you think you have achieved your goal, you need to set a higher one. The comment by John Meents about the cattle being small I would tend to disagree with, but realizing that most all the herds he visits have allot of show ring type genetics I would say they would look smaller to him. They are not the 2.7 frame cattle like the bull at the top of this thread. 5-6 frame is what we would like to stay in. As far as a pure polled herd....I can recall about 7-8 horned calves out of the last 1,000 born here, and a few scurred ones as well. Not bad in my opinion considering the bloodline I am perpetuating. DM i wan't trying to say your cattle and the trask bull were alike. i was trying to use them to show how much different they can be under different selection mngmt (linebreeding programs) and probably environment. trying to get at where is the polled herd that has been developed/linebred/selected for my area. a herd where you could take one of the females and put it out with mine and i wouldn't be able to tell the difference? thats all. and i'm not really interested in trying polls, and that does'nt mean i'm against them either... i'm kinda of a see it to believe it guy. a black baldy is a pretty proven thing - so if i'm going to dehorn naturally is going to be with a black bull. the females that work here are pretty specific and i ain't gonna go messin with that without seeing it first. you guys can call it poll bashin all you want - i get sick of hearing i'm bashing the breed because i speak my opinion or talk about what works from my view.
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Post by picketwire on Feb 17, 2013 10:56:38 GMT -6
Ace, very well put! Could not agree more!
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Post by mrvictordomino on Feb 17, 2013 12:36:44 GMT -6
Been to South America last week and didn't have a chance to respond to some comments on this thread. Ace, I know of some smaller Polled herds that are doing a good job of breeding cattle for their environments. They are not heavily advertised and most will not hear about them. As far as the Trask cattle are concerned, their is a fellow in Blairsville, GA that has started posting on CT that has probably the second largest concentration of Trask blood besides Fowken Farms of South Carolina. I will send him an invitation to this site. He has been breeding these cattle for forty-five years and I'm sure he can comment on this line. John is correct in that there has been many herds and bloodlines on the polled side that have just disappeared due to the heavy influence of the show ring on the polled side. As far as I'm concerned, especially in the decade of the eighties, we screwed up big time letting the show ring dictate the direction of the breed. Herds like Blanchard and Lindgern, Glenn Burrows, Ogeechee Farms and others are now lost forever. As far as the Polled vs. Horned deal, I don't care about that at all, I think there probably are more Horned cattle that are hardier on the range mainly due to the fact that there were more Horned breeders breeding cattle for what they were intended to do, reproduce and produce beef, not win a purple ribbon..... The article in the January HW did have some opinions that while I did appreciate them, I would think, or hope to think there are better herds out there with better udders and more consistency. Breeding cattle is a never ending process and if you think you have achieved your goal, you need to set a higher one. The comment by John Meents about the cattle being small I would tend to disagree with, but realizing that most all the herds he visits have allot of show ring type genetics I would say they would look smaller to him. They are not the 2.7 frame cattle like the bull at the top of this thread. 5-6 frame is what we would like to stay in. As far as a pure polled herd....I can recall about 7-8 horned calves out of the last 1,000 born here, and a few scurred ones as well. Not bad in my opinion considering the bloodline I am perpetuating. DM i wan't trying to say your cattle and the trask bull were alike. i was trying to use them to show how much different they can be under different selection mngmt (linebreeding programs) and probably environment. trying to get at where is the polled herd that has been developed/linebred/selected for my area. a herd where you could take one of the females and put it out with mine and i wouldn't be able to tell the difference? thats all. and i'm not really interested in trying polls, and that does'nt mean i'm against them either... i'm kinda of a see it to believe it guy. a black baldy is a pretty proven thing - so if i'm going to dehorn naturally is going to be with a black bull. the females that work here are pretty specific and i ain't gonna go messin with that without seeing it first. you guys can call it poll bashin all you want - i get sick of hearing i'm bashing the breed because i speak my opinion or talk about what works from my view. Ace, if you reread that 2.7 deal, I was referring to the comments of our area Hereford field man. I never took anything negative from your comments, actually took them as a complement. DM
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Post by hoekland on Feb 17, 2013 12:50:44 GMT -6
I have both poll and horned herefords, fair enough, my horned herd is still in the developing stage, but so far I'll back my polls to perform under teh toughest conditions, can't say the same about my horned herd yet. My polls have more milk, heavier muscle, better udders, more pigment and are overall sounder on their hind legs. The horned herefords typically have better eye set and better temperaments, and generally more bone.
What gets my goat is when inferior bulls (horned or poll, but in most cases horned) is being toted for hardy range bulls, when they in actual fact, just don't carry any natural muscle, no middle, no constitution, unsound legs, but they are getting praised because the breeder didn't get them overfat!
This site has some members that fall in that category....
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